CD4

(41 mins)
 

4/1

LOCAL POLITICS / REPRESENTING DISTRICT / EXMOOR NPA / DESIGNATING NP BOUNDARY / YEO VALLEY / ENP COMMITTEE MEMBERSHIP / PLANNING DECISIONS

He was always involved in local politics. He was a local councillor in 1967 or 8. He joined the old South Molton Rural District Council, representing East and West Anstey. That continued for 2 or 3 elections, until local government reorganisation in, he believes '73, and South Molton RDC got swallowed up by North Devon District Council. He became the councillor then for the larger area of Bishops Nympton, Molland, Twitchen, Knowstone and East and West Anstey parishes. He remained the councillor until he decided not to contest the council 2 years ago, 1999 he supposes. He decided that 32 years was enough.

During that time he had never had any ambitions but to represent his own district, but he had become the vice-chairman of North Devon District Council for 2 years, and the chairman for 2 years, 1991 and '92, which he accepted as a great honour. It was an ambition he'd never set out to do. For all the years, from 1973, he'd been appointed the North Devon representative on the Exmoor National Park Authority, and that's how he became associated with the National Park.

[BJ asks whether they were consulted when they were considering making Exmoor a national park] Not as a councillor, because he believes it was in 1951, wasn't it? But they were involved because his father was involved as a farmer and he was a representative of the agricultural executive committee at the time. Because the national park [boundary] was originally supposed to be much south of the existing line of the park. He doesn't know whether it was the old railway line or the main road link that was the original proposal. But eventually they were drawn back on a tight boundary to the moorland boundary just a mile up the road from here [Yeo Mill]. He believes it was because there was opposition at the time to the including of the Yeo valley. How times change. Now all the Yeo valley is classed as an environmentally sensitive area, which is somewhat under the management of the Exmoor National Park, welcomed by the farmers whose ancestors opposed it 40 years ago. How times change.

When he first joined the ENP he was looked at by some farmers to be almost a traitor, a farmer joining the Park. But by the time he'd finished, 25 years on, when he gave up the council and obviously could no longer be a member because his seat was tied to being a councillor [things had changed]. Today you could say that the park is welcomed by most farmers. So that was a significant change, which he'd always worked to achieve, to get a better relationship. Because ultimately he could see there were great benefits in the preservation and the conservation of Exmoor. During that time he'd been the vice-chairman of the park for several years. One of the things, you could never attain the chairmanship of the park for some reason, because he was not a Somerset County Councillor. And the rules at that time was to be chairman you had to be a Somerset County Councillor. He got to the next one down.

But what he enjoyed for many years was the chairmanship of the planning committee of the ENP. He keeps meaning to check how many years he was chairman of planning, but something tells him it was 15. It was in that region of years. It is probably unknown to be chairman of a sub-committee for so long. Chairman of planning was an interesting. It's different from planning on a district or county council, he thinks, because it was the one section of the NPA that you had normal power of determination. You hold the ultimate power in planning, of decision making, but have to remember in that decision making that a lot of those same people you had to go and negotiate with for other park achievements and benefits. And you could not antagonise those people if you had to go out cap in hand to deal with them.

So planning decisions as he saw them had to be more subtle. In many occasions you had to take longer to deal with them. If you had a refusal which had to be in planning policy, you had to be very careful how you did it. To make sure that the individual had a long hearing, that you dealt with them fairly slowly, talked to them about the matter. Ultimately they'd understand. But if you had the system of some district councils, and got the job over quickly, you could antagonise that person and the next time you wanted to negotiate a deal over something he'd tell you nearly where to go. Public relations in the National Park administration, to him, has been very very important. It was that one powerful position that made you realise you had to be very careful with the power you'd been given.

[BJ asks whether there were any decisions he regrets] He supposed there are a few he's bound to think weren't as good as they could be. One he was always doubtful about was the agricultural revision of dwellings on the moor. One of the enjoyments of the agricultural community [was that someone] could get permission to build a dwelling on Exmoor reasonably easy if he had a reasonable case. He has seen a few of those abused through the system shortly after they've been achieved, which have not been used for agriculture. He always felt it was not good for farming to see that sort of thing happen. Fortunately he sees that the Park Authority has now woken up to the fact that they have to be very much keener and tighter with the use of the dwellings that are put on Exmoor, not so much as to where they are put, but very much what they are used for. They are beginning to realise something he strove for for several years. [Back to top]
 

4/2

INCREASE IN DWELLINGS POST NP DESIGNATION / BUNGALOWS / MATTHEW WHALEY-COHEN / MOORLAND RECLAMATION

The one sad part he noticed about the park. In 1954, the inauguration of the park - the negotiations came in 1951, there were 3 years' preliminary negotiations - in that era there were a number of dwellings within the park boundary, he can't quote how many habitable dwellings, but when he gave up on the Park Authority he did ask the planning department for an assessment of how many dwellings there were now in the park. Now there were very nearly double as many dwellings within Exmoor national park in those 40 years as what there were at it's inauguration. Admittedly a lot of them were in Porlock, Lynton, Dulverton, Dunster and the larger villages, but with the diminution of the work availability on Exmoor national park, he does sometimes wonder whether that is the preservation and enhancement that they originally set out to do.

You talk of housing for local people, there is a shortage today, and yet there are more houses now than there were in those early days. He sometimes wonder whether administration hasn't gone slightly down a devious road. It does puzzle him.

[BJ asks about bungalows] Well, bungalows are really alien to Exmoor. He doesn't think they are quite as damaging, if they're designed right, as some people think they are because the majority of traditional old Exmoor farmhouses were fairly low anyway. He thinks there was a Woolaway bungalow which became very much used in the national park development after the war, which wasn't a very desirable building, but it served its purpose in certain areas. No, he doesn't particularly like some of the designs of bungalow in the national park, he thinks they were looked at as a cheaper form of development. He thinks it was probably a mistake. Thank goodness there's not too many of them.

[BJ asks how he survived the fiery days of the early administration] He always remembers one amusing incident. He thinks it was close to the first meeting he went to. At that time there was quite a well known, notorious member, Matthew Whaley-Cohen. He forgets whether it was a full meeting of a small sub-committee panel of appointing committees, anyway, he was young and argumentative he supposes, putting forwards a few points of view, and he can remember Matthew glaring at him. 'Mr Milton,' he said, 'when you have been here as long as I have, you will learn to do the things as we've been doing them,' laying the law down to JM. He let him continue, and when he'd finished he looked at him and said, 'Mr Whaley-Cohen, that is exactly why I've been sent here, is to do the things the way they should be done, not the way you've been doing them.' And out of the blue a book went flying past JM's ear and hit the wall the other side, he'd lost his patience with him and thrown his file at him. Five minutes later he apologised. After that he got on very very well with Matthew and thinks over the years he was on the committee with practically every other member as well. He remembers that incident quite well.

[BJ asks about the debates on moorland reclamation] Some of the open debates, when you went out into the village halls to talk to the community, you always found very different points of view. It was always a problem how you dealt with those, because some people short-circuited getting things. In administration you can probably achieve those objectives in a more subtle manner. It's something that his father always used to say to him, 'Never go out and be a rebel to the system. Always work out how you are going to get the best out of it.' Which is something he always remembered in his years with the Park Authority. There were some things you didn't like. but the best of it you could get. That was the way one had to work.

In the early days of the reclamation, you have to remember, it was very much encouraged by the ministry of agriculture policies to reclaim moorland. And a lot of farmers were looking for expansion of acres and that's the way they saw of doing it. Personally, he thinks it was a great mistake. A lot of the moorland which was brought into cultivation should never have been. He thinks the predecessors, of the Exmoor country community, had shown that they were wiser than you thought. The moorland was there because in the majority of instance it was not the best of the land, the best of the land had been brought into cultivation, grassland, whatever, in years and years of generations before. They were getting into some of the worst of it, in most instances.

Hence as time has seen it now you'll be paid to let those areas back again, into their moorland state. Yes, he always had some feeling that the taking of the moorland and bringing it into cultivation was overdone. In a lot of instances it should never ever have been attempted. [Back to top]
 

4/3

KNOWLEDGE OF EXMOOR TOPOGRAPHY / HUNTING / FAVOURITE PLACES / PEACE AND TRANQUILLITY / APPRECIATING EXMOOR / ANSTEY NOW

He has always prided himself that as long as he knows where he started from you could blindfold him and put him in a car, go where you like on Exmoor, and he'd be able to tell you where he was. He thinks he could achieve the same thing today. He thinks he does know the contours of Exmoor fairly well. He sometimes needs reminding of the name of certain cleaves and valleys; he used to know them fairly well but has had a lot of other things to think about and doesn't know them as intimately as he used to.

In his early childhood days and teenage days, he used to hunt a bit. If you want to know Exmoor inside out, if you did it on a horse you went places you would never go otherwise. That was his early introduction to some of the remoter parts of the moor. Incidentally, he's never ridden hunting since 1952. In 1952 he went stag hunting one day and finished in Porlock. For some reason, there were no boxes in those days, you rode home when you had finished, and he rode home from Porlock, back to West Anstey, arrived home in 2 o'clock in the morning, the horse dead tired and him not able to walk properly for a week, and although he did ride fox hunting a few times he never rode stag hunting afterwards. That was the end of him. In some respects looking back, he's a supporter of stag hunting, he believes it contribute towards the conservation of the red deer, but it's not for him. Not for him. Exmoor would be a different place without it. It's difficult to guess what the economic aspect of the loss of hunting would be, that's another issue.

He thinks one of his favourite parts of Exmoor - he always feels nice and happy on Winsford Hill, on the peak of there - but he must admit he has a certain feeling that he nearly always has to stop on a clear day on Fyldon Ridge. He thinks over the years of his involvement in public life, you can stop on Fyldon Ridge and practically see the whole of North Devon, looking to the south-west and west. What a magnificent view it is. Miles and miles, the sea, right down over Dartmoor, you just can't get Ilfracombe, but if you go on Fyldon Ridge on a fine summer's day, it is one of the magnificent views that ever man could enjoy. But it's a little bit different from the top of Winsford Hill. That does give you a true Exmoor moorland surrounding. Sadly, Fyldon Ridge was one of those areas that succumbed to the reclamation. It has never looked as nice and beautiful as it did before. But that's happened, he supposes. He wonders whether it will ever regenerate. It does look as if it's going a bit that way up there now. That's 2 favourite areas, different but both equally beautiful.

If he wanted to cheer himself up, he'd go to a nice quite spot out at Horner, or down at Landacre bridge, Slade bridge, with a picnic. You're pretty sure then that all the people you saw would be lovers of the area like yourself. If you're feeling that way, there's nothing better than the natural surroundings of the life you grew up in. Fortunately, he's not had too many of those moments. Yes, that's the sort of surroundings he likes to go to for peace and tranquillity.

He goes away with one of his sons to the Midlands, or the North of England because he likes to buy the odd agricultural machine, use it and sell it, as a bit of a hobby. If you go away in those distant areas, when you come home, that's when you really appreciate Exmoor. You have to go away from Exmoor to really appreciate it. When you come back you realise it is somewhere different. Every day, you take it for granted he thinks.

But it's changed tremendously, because you've got so many people these days. In Anstey in his young day, there were 20, 30, farm workers. He doesn't mean the self-employed farmer, buy employing someone. Today, he can't think of one. No-one employs anyone, they employ contract labour if they want it. All the houses that they [the farm workers] used to live in are occupied by someone that's working in Barnstaple, or Taunton, or Exeter. Jumping in their motor car and driving off. They've even got one person living not far away living in a farmhouse, the land of which's been sold, who goes to London every day to work. He drives to Parkway station at Tiverton, jumps on the train, does his work on his briefcase on the train, does his work in the city, comes home at night and does his work on the way home. And he says it's a better life with his wife and family, in the area. That's how things have changed.

And it also changes the way of life, because those old country people are not there any more, deriving their livelihoods from the local community, and dependent on it. [Back to top]
 

 4/4

IDENTIFYING WITH EXMOOR / AREA'S RELATIONSHIP WITH BARNSTAPLE ADMINISTRATION / EXMOOR HILL FARMING COMMITTEE

If someone asks him where he comes from, he tells them he comes from Exmoor, first of all. If he's ringing a distant place on the telephone and they want to know which part of the country he comes from he always names Exmoor, as most of them know where Exmoor is. Down into definition then, as to which area you come from on Exmoor, one always looks at Dulverton to be the most likely to be known in the area, although in more recent years, he's put it as a downward benefit, they were transferred to the South Molton postal address, although they are 10 miles from South Molton and 4 miles from Dulverton. He can never understand with parishes and postal addresses these days, the day of the post code, why you seem to get such a muddle. You tend to want to admit that you live near Dulverton much more than you do that you live near South Molton. Now why, he wouldn't be able to say.

This section of North Devon, to his estimation, is never appreciated by the administration of North Devon. The years when he was on the council, because of the size of Barnstaple and Ilfracombe, who have a large number of representatives on the council, and a small amount of rural administration. With the district council administered from Barnstaple, he's said many times, 'The trouble with you Sir, is that you don't realise North Devon goes any further than Landkey.' He thinks that's a true comment. Even to this day - they [JM and BJ] were talking earlier on about Radio Devon - he believes they are so urban dominated these days, and they, the Ansteys, and Molland and Twitchen, are so remote, they are more associated with the life of Exmoor and West Somerset than they are with Barnstaple and North Devon, as they [Barnstaple] see it. He hopes that tourism-wise, they realise they are not.

You hear them talking today of Hatherley and Okehampton to be North Devon. To him, it was always West Devon. He thinks that today the media take a central line across the county and call anything north of it North. But can you really associate Hatherley and Anstey, or Brendon, this area. They (we) are a different area. The media hasn't done them too much good in [defining] their geographical representation. The Exmoor national park has given them a standing and identity which he doesn't think they would have achieved without the park status, in those remote areas.

He represents the area on the Exmoor hill farming committee. It's drawing mainly from the NFU and bodies of Exmoor and Devon to form an Exmoor hill farming committee. He's been a member of it for several years. Again, in the last 12 months you almost forget you're a member, because he's been involved in the foot and mouth outbreak and diplomatically kept away from any meetings because the main core of that committee were outside the country's affected area. It wouldn't have been appreciated too much if he'd walked in a committee room in the middle of Exmoor. So he's had a year of keeping away. So he's somewhat lost touch. Funnily enough, it's the Exmoor hill farming committee that evening, at Sandyway.

It's a very important committee he believes as regards putting the hill farmers view to county dominated NFU bodies which are very much dairy farmer controlled. So he thinks it is a very important committee for putting over, he shouldn't call it poor relations, but the different method of farming issues which get forgotten otherwise. [Back to top]
 

4/5

LIFE NOW / HIGHLIGHTS / VJ DAY / YEO VALLEY BECOMING AN ENVIRONMENTALLY SENSITIVE AREA

Looking back, there are always things that you thought you would like to do. Since he gave up being a councillor there have been things that he was going to do. He's found himself involved in doing little things much more; doing his own thing every day. He likes shooting. When he was a councillor he could rarely manage to get 3 or 4 days of the week off in public life, and the days you were home, in the family business, you were hard pressed. Now he hasn't got that worry. He can do his own thing, in his own way, at a slower pace. So he wouldn't say he was doing anything additional, he's doing what would have been done in a small way before but more of it. And a bit older, possibly, to be able to keep up the pace. So it possible fills the gap.

To identify highlights is a very difficult question to answer because he's enjoyed life all around the area and countryside he lives in, and all factors of life. He hasn't got anything that stands out other than his personal days of life, wedding days. They celebrated 40 years of marriage 2 years ago. Yes, he's enjoyed his life. Those that know him well would say, 'Yes, he's enjoyed his life.'

Little things you did, which today perhaps the younger generation wouldn't class as enjoyable. Enjoying the area you live, and the people you live among. Enjoying taking part in the activities, which is a part of country living. He doesn't think is anything more than anyone could wish for. He's enjoyed it.

He thinks one of the most memorable days of really enjoying himself that he can remember would have been VJ Day. He was just 14, 15, at that time. He was between the ages, but he was old enough to join in, and it was a memorable event. Although Exmoor is looked at today to be a long way from Europe, and France, they were very much more in the front line than a lot of people think. As he's said, the American forces that were there in their thousands and appeared that day. They seemed to come out of the blue. The thousands that were there in the last 12 months before they went across to the continent, and the activities that took place. BJ had asked about the pylons earlier - sitting there [in the chair he is in at the moment] he has seen a dog fight taking place, with a Spitfire and a German bomber or 2, going across to South Wales. Perhaps the pylons would be a good thing today, because they used to be fairly low level activities, but he always understood the Spitfires came up the valley because they used the railway line for guidance. They've seemed many an armed combat in that valley. Yes, it was a pleasure, and that day was one of the most memorable. If he had to name a day it was among them, anyway. But he hasn't got one which would be really outstanding from any other.

There's a saying, isn't there, 'Never put off for tomorrow what you can achieve today.' That's one of them, isn't it?

[BJ says he's talked to 2 o'clock and must be hungry] He restricts his eating these days, so he can't be [laughs]. Yes, there's a lot, he expects, that he would have liked to have said. It's difficult to remember everything, in the sequence that you want to remember them. He supposes he's the only person in that parish now who has recollections of the war, because the one other person he was talking about, Peter Vellacott, who's a little older than him, was away in the army in the war years. And that's how much the parish has changed. But he's not old yet, he hopes, but old enough.

[BJ asks about him feeling Exmoor, even though where he lives is just outside the boundary] He thinks one of the nicest things that has happened in recent years was when this valley was brought into the ESA [environmentally sensitive area] under the jurisdiction of the Exmoor National Park. It was really putting the boundary almost to where he would have liked to have seen it in those early days - or where his father would have liked to have seen it. Funnily enough, his father was one of those in those early days of negotiation who was very much in favour of the national park inauguration, but some of his farming neighbours were not the same way inclined. But he saw benefits in the conservation of the moor and what the national park designation might do for it. [disk ends]

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