CD2

(72 mins)

2/1

EXMOOR NATIONAL PARK OFFICER APPLICATION / INTERVIEW PANEL / NEW ORGANISATION / SETTING STAFF LEVEL / FIRST STAFF

When he applied for the job of national park officer he was interviewed by a panel. It consisted of George Wyndam, chairman of Somerset County Council at the time, DW thinks. He was certainly a very prominent county councillor and had been chairman of the Somerset County Council [National Park] Committee. There was a corresponding Devon committee. The new organisation provided for an amalgamation so the two Devon and Somerset committees came together under Somerset County Council. George Wyndham was instrumental in setting it up. The panel included Penny Phillips and Ben Halliday [fellow contributor to archive]. The interview was very businesslike. He was questioned for some time [talks about process]. He thinks between 300 and 400 people applied.

He was called back and George Wyndham told him he'd been selected. He told DW he'd need some staff and that they were planning to set the National Park Authority up at Exmoor House in Dulverton and were thinking of 4 or 5 people. DW had done some work on the question of staffing and his figure was closer to 20. George Wyndham resisted, but he convinced him and they finished up with the target of 18. He found the first 3 or 4. One already on site, Jim Collins [fellow contributor to archive], was warden. He thinks he's right in saying the one and only warden for Exmoor. [added later - Jim Collins was warden for Somerset only at that time; Ron Skipworth was Devon warden]. John Esson from Lynton came along as Administrator and BJ [who is doing the recording] as Secretary. [Back to top]
 

2/2

FIRST DAYS / BUILDING UP TEAM / COMMITTEE MEETINGS / PLANNING DUTIES / WOODLANDS / COMMITTEE DEBATES

They worked to no routine at all.  They worked long hours, with uncomplaining overtime. That little team got things off the ground in a most dedicated way, and he's not saying it just because BJ is sat there. They were joined by Gerry Belton, who started working on visitor services. So they built up to 18. That included the planners and development control. They were very stretched and he realised early on that even 18 wasn't quite what they needed. He remembers a very stormy meeting - meetings in those days tended to be stormy - when a number of committee members refused point blank to associate themselves with any increase to 22, which was the next stage. They thought 18 was way over the top. In fact he doesn't think they ever got beyond 22 in his time. They went up to 18 and then 4 more were needed on the planning side, because they had to take over statutory duties from the county council.

The clerk to the committee was a member of Somerset County Council staff and the Treasurer's Department were always represented, and they got the most wonderful support. On the land management side Roger Miles came from County Hall. He was an experienced forester, with an Oxford degree. He was invaluable because he'd already done quite a lot of work on the woodlands and knew what he was talking about. As attention shifted onto the value of moorland he was there to counter-argue that the woodlands needed as much if not more attention. If more money had been available moorland wouldn't have become an over-sensitive issue. But the woodlands had been neglected to a much greater degree. But it's a very big subject. He thinks they've come up with the best compromise of interests since. Farming, tourism, enjoyment.

There were 3 elements to debates. Farmers and landowners, who belonged to the area and understood it; those who felt that the National Park [Authority] should provide means of enjoying it, ie visitor services and information; and the incomers, who didn't know the area but had their own ideas of how national parks should be run, with a detached approach. The groups blurred. The most prominent and rather undesirable and often unnecessary discussions in committee tended to involve local interests against perceived interests by people who didn't belong to Exmoor but had their own ideas about the entitlement of the public to enjoy this, that and the other. Fertile ground for disagreement. [Back to top]
 

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COMMITTEE MEMBERS

He was lucky in having some extremely good people at the top. George Wyndham was a first class chairman. A great pourer of oil on troubled waters. Ben Halliday [fellow contributor to archive] was a strong contributor, a fount of knowledge with a wonderful sense of balance. He made an important contribution to Exmoor as vice-chairman. Further afield, another strong contributor of great stature was Penny Phillips, who ran the policy and resources side of the county council. She made an enormous contribution. Half the work she did, she was doing from Taunton. They were 3 of the principal contributors from the local government standpoint and nominated members. Indeed John Edwards [fellow contributor to archive] is still on the national park committee today as deputy vice-chairman, he thinks [actually second deputy chairman]. His association goes back over 25 years. He has invaluable background and a sense of judgement, and as a county councillor can see the bigger picture. So when things went wrong there was that nucleus of people who saw it through.

[BJ asks if any of the original committee were already friends or acquaintances of his, for example Auberon Herbert]. Yes, Auberon was a friend, a very eccentric friend. His views were always interesting. He sometimes had a card up his sleeve which might emerge later. It wasn't a problem. There was intrigue, but he's not going to go into it, it wouldn't contribute. But there were trouble-makers and Exmoor had its full share. One or two disgraceful things happened behind the scenes that never should have happened. He can reveal that after quite a number of meetings he would hear from the Countryside Commission that one or 2 members would be on to the Countryside Commission reporting what the committee had decided that afternoon. Very unhelpful. [Back to top]
 

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COMMITTEE MEMBERS / FARMING INFLUENCE / FARMING COMMUNITY / MEETING PEOPLE

Matthew Waley-Cohen was a great character. Had a heart of gold. Misunderstood by many. He allowed his feelings to run away with him. He made all sorts of contributions and most of the time his views, when over the top, were accepted in good humour by most, though he did spark controversy. But his interventions were less harmful than the wily manoeuvring from others.

He hopes the military titles of some of the committee and staff had no more effect locally than it should have done. Thomas Trollope-Bellew (a wartime Major) became chairman and had a very difficult time. He had some fractious people to deal with and found it difficult, as any chairman would have done. On balance DW thinks he did a good job. His military experience may have contributed to his character, but it hadn't left a pronounced stamp on it. DW got on very well with him. He had a difficult time and made the best of it. Squadron Leader Whinney was well-balanced and a steadying influence. Farmers accepted you if they thought you understood farming, whether you were in or out of the service. The farming influence on the committee was strong. Some members were just farmers, for example John Verney. He was a wonderful contributor. Quiet and sound.

As far as the broader farming community was concerned, he went out meeting farmers. He always found them friendly. When he left he felt he'd had a lot of understanding from the farming fraternity. They hadn't always agreed with decisions taken but he never found a fringe element within the farming community who made life more difficult. Many are still his friends.

He got to know the park by going round and meeting people. Had he been a hunting man he would have got to know it better, but as a former soldier you operate on ground of one sort or another and get used to evaluating it. [Back to top]
 

2/5

PLOUGHING MOORLAND / GOVERNMENT MISTAKES / MOORLAND DRAINAGE / EFFECTS ON EXE AND BARLE

[BJ asks about 'Food from our own resources' and the government encouraging ploughing of moorland when DW was NPO]. That's a very big issue and one could talk for ever on that. But he thinks there were 2 main mistakes the government of the day made. The first in the steps they took to intensify farming with regard to payments and inducements. As a result it became profitable to plough heather land. That was not helpful because it was the wrong thing to do. Some other way should have been found, earlier than it was (he'll come to Porchester later).

One of the most damaging things was when MAFF, encouraged by ADAS in the late '60s, early '70s, encouraged drainage of the moorland. In those days ADAS gave free advice - party line was 'you should be keeping a lot more sheep, drain the land' - and gave them 70% grant to drain the land to increase stock. What farmer can resist. A number took advantage. Result was more stock, so it became over-stocked, but perhaps even worse was the effect on the rivers.

The Exe and the Barle (which meet on DW's land) were both affected by the drainage programme. A friend whose family have kept weather records for many years told him that 30 or more years ago when there had been heavy rain above where she lives, in the Winsford area, it would take 24 hours for the river to rise. It would rise slowly and run off slowly and the rain would still be affecting the level of the river a week or more later. Today, when the same rainfall falls, the river colours and rises in 2 hours. The obvious conclusion is that the drainage that ADAS and MAFF recommended was one of the biggest blunders they ever made. [Back to top]
 

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BARLE AND EXE DROUGHTS / EFFECTS ON WILDLIFE / PROJECTS TO RE-ESTABLISH MOORLAND WATER RETENTION / EFFECT OF PLOUGHING MOORLAND / PORCHESTER REPORT

There is an interesting sequel to it. In at least 3 national parks, one of which is Exmoor, today there is a growing interest in finding a solution which will involve the un-draining of high heathland and moorland, which previously were sponges keeping water in store for gradual dispersion. The Barle and Exe suffer from annual drought conditions. It is alleviated by Wimbleball which has a release, but above the Haddeo the Little Exe, as they know it locally, goes into drought conditions in early Summer or even Spring. The Barle likewise. It's been very harmful in all sorts of ways in affecting wildlife, nature and so on, as well as the purity of the river. Although he's not suggesting for a moment that the rivers are not two of the best and purest in the south west.

He's not going to be precise about which areas have been affected because the National Park are working on it. He's been helping them indirectly by going to Northumberland and seeing what they are doing [describes it]. He thinks North York Moors have a project on. If they [those 2 national parks] can re-establish mires and water retention in the upper moorland that's suitable for the purpose, it will be well worth while.

He thinks ploughing the moorland undoubtedly did lasting damage because ploughing changed the character and vegetation drastically. He's not qualified to know whether it affected the water level. [aside - BJ says it's 12.15 and DW had wanted to go out at 12. He decides to go on a bit longer]

When the time came that they felt they'd reached an impasse [over moorland reclamation], in 1977 probably, and there was no solution, or conviction, that they would be doing the right thing to try and arrest the improvement of the land, he proposed to Penny Phillips and John Whittaker (chief executive of Somerset County Council) that there should be an independent inquiry into Exmoor's moorland problems. He met a senior member of the DOE staff in London. His suggestion was approved and before long Lord Porchester took on the study. His response tells the rest of the story. He thinks the Porchester report came out in 1978. [Back to top]
 

2/7

IMPLEMENTATION OF PORCHESTER REPORT / SUBSEQUENT NPOs / CONCEPT OF NATIONAL PARKS / BEAUTY SPOTS / WILD COUNTRY / IAN MERCER AND CONSERVATION RESEARCH

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He's not the person to ask how successful the implementation was. His father died in '76 and he retired in '78 to take over the small estate. Just after Porchester. Len Curtis, his successor, was involved in the follow up and consequences. More so Keith Bungay [the next NPO] later, with whom he was in close touch. DW thinks he did an admirable job.

When he left, DW felt he had achieved a lot in a short time with able and dedicated staff. He was uneasy about the lead from the top on the presentation of national parks and the availability of them to the public and the enormous infrastructure that became necessary. It was a no win situation. His idea of national parks is still very coloured by the sort of concept that would be really impracticable in Britain. But it has to be retained. The primary aim of national parks is conservation. He feels that has been lost sight of in facilitating access so people can see the beauty spots. He thinks beauty spots are the jewels in any landscape and should be guarded and not opened up for more and more people because they soon lose their value.

When he says that he's talking about all national parks, including Exmoor. He thinks it's insoluble. He still always finds himself back to the basic principle that national parks were chosen because of their beauty and their character and natural qualities. In the end many people who really appreciate wild country find it's much easier to find outside national parks than within them.

[BJ asks how he thinks those areas should be enjoyed] To go into it [that question] would have to be a massive exercise. He thinks Ian Mercer might have come up with an answer. Ian Mercer was his contemporary NPO for Dartmoor roughly 25 years ago. He has gone up the ladder in conservation and is now head of the Council [actually Sec-Gen of the Association of National Park Authorities, from which he retired early 2001] and extending his own grasp. He is now Professor Ian Mercer and a great authority on this subject. He's spent most of his life on it and is still working at it. DW thinks it would be a great mistake to simplify it, but there are people more qualified than him, who have analysed the problems. All he can say is that he is uneasy about opening national parks up for enjoyment. He thinks mistakes have been made, but there have also been great achievements. [Back to top]
 

 2/8

RETIREMENT / EXMOOR NPA NOW / NATIONAL PARKS ANNUAL CONFERENCE / CHURCH

He's happy still living on the doorstep, since he retired as NPO. Although the National Park staff are 4 times the size, they seem to be enlightened, dedicated and helpful. He thinks the committee is doing a good job. He was invited to the National Park Conference at Saunton [Sands]. Exmoor was hosting it again [2001]. He was impressed by the quality of the programme. Not only on the administrative side but by the enjoyment, quality and almost total lack of controversy. But when there was controversy it was difference of opinion and well presented. As a 2 days refresher course to him it was invaluable. [further discussion about DW now being half an hour late. Decision to continue]

[BJ asks how his family's strong faith, which he had referred to earlier, fitted in to his life]. It's a very uncomplicated story. He had a Christian upbringing and they went to church every Sunday, wherever they were. Dulverton was their parish when they were at Highercombe. When he bought Combeland, though only 4 miles from Highercombe, they found themselves in a different parish, a different county and a different diocese. So they left Dulverton, where they had been very happy with the church, and came to Morebath. It was a smaller church, with the problems that smaller churches have. He thinks it doesn't do in churches, any more than in national parks, as beginners, to make your presence felt. He became churchwarden (for 13 years)  and set about raising money for the church by running festivals.

The church still has an important part to play. When problems affect a community, eg foot and mouth, he has been conscious of the extent to which people help each other face the problems. It may be that not everything that results from foot and mouth will have been grim and disastrous.

[RECORDING ENDS] [Back to top]